L: I know you’ve also been active in organising spaces like that, like in the GFN Book Club and in consent trainings that you used to do. Can you maybe talk a little bit about that, how you like to go about shaping a space?
That’s a tough one… I think not simplifying things helps. I mean, maybe that is more my personal opinion and how I feel about the integrity of the stuff that you’re talking about. You can explain it clearly and simply without making it smaller than it is, because in my experience, consent for example is just such a big and important issue, you can’t really make it smaller or anything like that, you can’t really reduce it, and it shouldn’t be reduced, because it is quite simple in its essence. But sometimes it can feel hard, if you’ve never heard about it before, because people will end up being embarrassed about certain things maybe.
“You can explain it clearly and simply without making it smaller than it is.”
I remember one time, I asked what some examples were of nonverbal consent, and people named a few things, like you can give a thumbs up or something like that, or if someone takes your hand and puts it on a certain part of their body, that probably means they would like you to touch it, so if they want to guide you in a certain way, that could be nonverbal consent. And I was like ‘Yeah, those are some good examples, you could also use sign language’, and then people started laughing.
And I was like ‘Well, I wonder why you’re laughing, because there are people who speak this language and it’s called sign language, it’s called American sign language in this case, and that’s a perfectly valid way to communicate’. And of course you could argue, like I’m not sure what the literal definition of verbal is… Of course, you are talking when you are using sing language. To me, what I meant at that moment was talking out loud, using your mouth. So then, when I said that, people were like ‘Oh, yeah’, they stopped laughing and were like ‘You know, that does make sense’.
So, I think sometimes people just need to get over a certain discomfort barrier, and if you take people seriously and acknowledge ‘This might be something you’re not aware of, or it might be something that’s a little challenging to talk about, but I think it is important to talk about’, if you just normalise things… I’ve noticed that a lot even in conversations with friends and stuff, if you normalise talking about certain challenging topics like racism or sexism or sex or whatever, then people will… You know, if you can say the word ‘orgasm’ without laughing, then people are usually like ‘Oh, you are right, this is a part of life, and it’s fine to talk about that’.
And I think especially if you’re in a minority group or if you’re in an oppressed group, like being queer or being a woman or something like that, or being any gender but a cis-man [laughs], I feel like it might be extra-challenging to talk about stuff like that, but I think normalising talking about it can be a really good first step.
L: Could you maybe elaborate a bit more on what makes a space feel safer for you specifically?
I think having a kind of policy, like actively voicing a policy that is accepting, like how the GFN meetings usually start, I think that’s a cool idea to just like actively proclaim that this is something that you’re striving for, that also kind of gives you… because no-one does it perfectly, nothing can be perfect, so that also maybe would help facilitate a space where you can call each other out, if you feel like you’re not being treated fairly or people are being misrepresented or something like that, then you can be like ‘Hey, remember when you said you wanted to make this accessible for people of all levels of education?’
“No-one does it perfectly, nothing can be perfect, so that also maybe would help facilitate a space where you can call each other out.”
Like, we had this conversation in the bookclub, where we had very academically heavy discussions, that can be challenging for anybody, also people with a theoretical education, so maybe this is not very accessible for people with a practical education. And if somebody calls that out, like ‘Hey, I feel like I need a master’s degree to follow this conversation’, then that means you’re not really doing your job; if your goal is to have a reading group for people with a master’s degree, then yes, you could be like ‘We’re doing our job, because we’re trying to be exclusive’. But if you’re not, then I think voicing that policy of trying to be accessible to everybody could maybe also create a safer space for people to approach you if they feel like that’s not being lived up to.
And I think being willing to stand up to people and for people and against behaviour that’s not tolerated, but still in a way that’s productive and not just like yelling at people or whatever, even if it’s something that’s sensitive. Like in that example I gave with the young adults that were laughing, obviously you could lose your cool and be like ‘Deaf people are people too, and people that are hard of hearing can use sign language and it’s perfectly normal, why are you guys laughing?!’ Someone could react that way and it would be understandable for them to react that way, because it could be very upsetting to hear people laugh about something that’s perfectly normal, and it’s ableist to be laughing at stuff like that.
“I think being brave enough to call people out in a productive way helps contribute to a safe space as well.”
But at the same time, if you can just take a moment to explain, I think it goes down a lot better for everybody, in a way that everybody can learn and move on and hopefully not hold a grudge forever against the people who acted ignorantly in that moment or didn’t know. Because the fact already that they showed up shows that they want to learn. Like, people that come to a GFN meeting like that, maybe they don’t know anything, they don’t know what pansexual is, they don’t know what being queer means, they don’t know the history of ‘queer’ as a curse word or a mean name to call people, all that stuff. That can be problematic, it can create problematic situations when not everyone is on the same footing from the start, but it’s really good that people are there to learn in the first place. So, I think being brave enough to call people out in a productive way helps contribute to a safe space as well.
L: So you don’t open the space up for any kind of BS but you also see where people are coming from and meet them where they are. Because we never know everything.
For sure, yeah. And I don’t think you necessarily have to apologise for where you’re coming from either all the time, like it’s good to acknowledge that you have certain privileges, but I don’t think people need to be ashamed necessarily for where they are coming from, because that’s not productive either. So if you come from a middle or upper class background, or if you’re white or white-passing, or if you have certain other privileges, you don’t need to be ashamed, but it’s good to keep in mind and acknowledge those privileges you have at the same time.
